How do you find the right company for you? (EP.10)

In this episode I am in conversation with Vanessa Colina, founder of UX Backstage, a series of online courses for designers that aim to help develop the necessary skills to find your next job.

Vanessa has some great advice for hiring managers of all kinds about what they can be doing to improve the quality of the candidates they attract and being honest about what they need, and how UX Backstage launched in order to support designers looking to move out of junior or mid-weight positions into organisations that will help you develop skills and spaces for the future.

Show Links

UX Backstage
Vanessa Colina

Transcript

Andy Parker
Welcome to season two of the UX coach podcast. This time around, we are expanding on our exploration into careers in digital design and use research to look into the challenges encountered by hiring managers and those new to the industry wanting to make good progress. In this episode, I’m in conversation with Vanessa Colina. Vanessa is founder of UX backstage a series of online courses for designers that aim to help develop the necessary skills to find your next job.

Vanessa has some great advice for hiring managers of all kinds about what they can be doing to improve the quality of the candidates they attract and being honest about what they need. We also talked about how UX backstage launched in order to support designers looking to move out of junior or midway positions into organizations that will help you develop skills and spaces for the future.

Here’s Vanessa to tell us more.

Vanessa Colina
My name is is Vanessa Colina and I have a background in graphic design. Actually I went to school for graphic design in 2004 and after getting my degree I started working in in the design industry and started testing all the different types of design that I could that I could execute. And that’s how I got to digital design and I fell in love with back then with websites then with mobile applications. And, and finally, with user experience designs on design, once I realized that having the perspective and the user included in the process was the way to go. So I’ve been I’ve been doing that for the for the past 10 years. And right now I’m in a team where we explore new content, new concepts in technology, and I’m the one always bring in the user to the center, co creating with them testing new concepts. What you would say is that I’m in that early stage when you are creating a product and testing new concept to see if that’s something that a user needs, and it aligned with their needs,

Andy Parker
right. So it sounds like a little bit of classic sort of UX discovery work, but also possibly a bit more in a sort of innovation space where you’re pushing what is possible and what can be achieved.

Vanessa Colina
Definitely in the innovation space where we are creating something new. We are disrupting other products. And it’s funny, you mentioned that because I just went to a conference and lean startup conference and many of the things that the teams do in that attend that type of conference. They are called innovation teams. So it’s very, it’s very aligned with that type of activities because we tackle the introduction of products. So all of these products that that have a high risk within the organization and highest degree of

Andy Parker
uncertainty sounds like a pretty good space to be in. So I’m really interested to know about your involvement with the Envision design Leadership Forum, and how that then relates to UX backstage, I noticed that you were talking about in the designer Hangout, slack channels.

Vanessa Colina
Sure. So I joined the design Leadership Forum, I think, two years ago. Now, I think it was when they started the forum. And it’s a really, it’s a really good forum, in terms of leadership because they’re, there is a really strong community. It’s a Slack channel and a series of events that is organized by innovation, where we touch on a lot of them challenges around leadership around managing a team at managing their or establishing their user experience, experience practice in all kinds of companies, small, medium, large. And out of that group, I was able to validate a few of the challenges that I’ve been going through as well. So it’s more like a support group, I would say, in a very, very engaged support group wanting to when it comes to leadership, and the challenges around that. Apart from that, at the end of last year, I started this project called UX backstage. I was originally about to start working on a product for us designers. And before doing that, of course, I apply the same methods to myself as well and I said I have to go have to go and talk to people and and see if this is a share. frustration is not me that I want. That I need this in my life. So after talking to a lot of designers and then start talking to hiring managers, I realized that one of the main frustration that we have now in in our space is the higher end space. Right? And, and I see that as actually a good thing. Because we are in this position where there’s a lot of demand for user experience. Now. It used to not be that way, maybe two or three years ago, we were be that demand, you would, you would say it was average. But now you see all of these positions being up open in all sorts of companies, companies are realizing that design is is a competitive advantage. The only thing that I’ve noticed is that they are they know they need it. But then they don’t know what to do with UX once they have it inside the company. So the only exposure that people Companies have had to design most of the time is actually visual design. So that’s the expectation that they have when someone from user experience enters the company. And also since they are trying to establish their team, the UX team, they are looking for people with, with a already with experience as a UX designer, so two or three or four years of experience. And they are looking also for people in leadership positions. So the the person that is going to build a team that is going to lead them the building of the design capability within the company. So that that leaves us in this cycle where we are in companies that maybe don’t understand what we do, and maybe don’t, don’t, they’re not ready to to grow their design capabilities. And then we want to go into a job that maybe is going to give us more more opportunities to grow as a designer, but then the next job is looking for someone that already has a few years of experience. So there’s this gap in the hiring space that I’ve identified in the past year, where with one of the courses that we are doing with UX backstage is to help designers assess a set of companies that maybe are already invested in growing their their UX team and, and grow in moving to the next level and their UX maturity. Help them get into these companies, help them assess the company, help them articulate their design decisions, help them, help them present themselves in a way that it’s an opportunity for the company regardless of the experience that they might have with they have the if they don’t have enough or or if they have enough, but they don’t know how to position their experience. And their idea at the end with the project is to get more companies into a higher UX maturity level. I think that that’s going to get us into a more fulfilling job. One that can impact the the products and the services of the companies. I don’t know if this happens to you, but me as a designer, every time that I use a product that is not aligned with what I need, that is a frustration to us, I’m like, we can do better. Like there’s a team. I’m sure there’s a design team within this company that needs to have a say into decision that needs to have more influence to be able to make this product better. So I think that at the end by helping us get into these companies and have more influence, the at the end, the products of this company, are going to be better so we’re gonna be happier in a job at So we’re gonna, we’re going to have better products as consumers.

Andy Parker
Wow, there’s so much to kind of unpack in that there’s a couple of things that I’d like to sort of dig into a little bit deeper. One of them was the course that you’re about to launch towards the end of this year in 2019 2020. In a way it’s it’s a bit like a dating app, right? It’s like trying to help designers look for the red flags in job ads to be able to know what kind of organization that they’re walking into. What are the skills and and mindsets Are you helping develop their as part of that?

Vanessa Colina
That that’s funny that you mentioned mindset, because that’s that the program which is a four week program, these first program is going to be more like a mentorship because I’m going to be there 100% of the time. Then it’s a group of sessions where is more like a one on one relationship where I work with the student and then we have few sessions will, which is with the whole group to be able to, to leverage everyone’s experience. And more than looking for red flags which we are going to do in the program is to teach this the students how to assess these companies by themselves. Once the program it’s over, because as you know, finding a job and especially the job they they you really want us is not something that you accomplished in four weeks. So the main thing that I want, I want students to get from this course is to have confidence in in the companies that they are choosing to apply to. One thing that is happening, too is that it seems there are so many opportunities now so many UX positions open. You have then UX designers applying to 1015 like yesterday, I talked to someone that applied to 50 in in the past three months and that takes time. That is really time consuming and, and is staggering and but also it dilutes the the effort of applying to the company. So you’re not really tailoring your, your expertise to a given company. And this is something that the main thing that hiring managers in mentioned when I talked to them, they said I would like a candidate that tailor their application to what I need to the product of the company to the industry. Of course, I also mentioned that if the the job description is very generic, it’s really difficult to tailor that application, but so looking for red flags, but also understanding the company what’s the business model of the company? What what would design bring to that company? There are many companies that maybe design is not destructive. Take advantage. So for that at the moment, so for that you’re gonna, you’re gonna get a little bit of pushback when you get into these companies. So and and there are pros and cons with this type of companies because you, you are able to grow as a leader if you get into these companies and you are able to overcome these obstacles, but that’s something that I really want people to get clear on. And if you’re looking to develop your leadership skill, that’s a great opportunity to enter these kinds of companies. If you’re looking to grow as a UX designer, and practice more of your craft and, and learn from from someone that has more experience than you than you then going into a company with a higher maturity, it’s a better it’s a better option for you. So so that’s why I say that for this one. I think it’s going to be more like a mentorship because it’s about like, thinking about what what’s the goal of each participant and then and they’re looking for companies that are going to end plans that goal,

Andy Parker
what do you see as being the main challenges for people in hiring management positions? Because we, it sounds like you’re looking at two quite different camps. You’ve got one, which is you have an organization, which has already got an established design infrastructure. And there’s leadership there, they’re looking for something and I’m guessing it’s very different to the organizations that have low maturity, but you’re saying provides a different opportunity for a designer to be able to go into that and actually make a stamp on that product, the service or whatever. So do

Vanessa Colina
you mean the hiring manager? Yeah. Yeah, so definitely, there’s a difference and I this like over simplification of the invasion, this UX maturity model, where you have the low and then they meet maturity and then the highest which is only 5% of the Company survey. The main thing that I see with hiring managers, especially in terms of their maturity, is that in low maturity companies, their hiring manager might not be someone with a design background might be someone that is coming from the marketing department or maybe even the engineering department, it’s coming from someone that is maybe doesn’t have the best understanding of what user experience is coming into the company to do. So that does in the load, low maturity companies, this is a real problem because the the hiring process across the application is very normally geared towards visual design. So that’s the station that they have, because there’s many, many times you are the first hire or the second hire. And in a company that even the bigger the company, the bigger the challenge, to then change minds and it And explain what what’s the value that you’re bringing into the company. And with the mid level of maturity, then you use in these companies, your, you might already have a team, someone in leadership in these teams, that person might be hiring, maybe the hiring manager, that person might be the one that they hire to build a team because that’s something that is happening a lot. Once the company sees that they need someone with enough understanding of UX to hire, then they hire the the lead or or the head of the design, and then this person builds the team. So it is it that’s why I’m I’m focusing on helping designers get into this type of company because it’s being in the mid level. Everything is not established yet. The team is establishing the process and the design which I’m sure you know, it’s different We have these framework there that we start with in companies, but everything needs to be adapted to, to the product of the company and the organization and the culture of the company. So it’s a really good space if you want to learn your craft, but also you want to learn leadership as well, to get into this mid level, but I would say that’s, that’s a difference when you’re going to allow design maturity company, you might not even be talking to someone with a design knowledge or background. mid level, yes. And I mean, the highest, you know, I talked to him to someone to apply for the course and she was like, I want to get into Airbnb or Apple or these companies which are in the highest level. And I’m like for those kind of companies, I mean, we know they are designed lead, like we know that design is in the highest levels of influence. So for those type of applications at different times, Enough of skills is needed, like you have this loan applications and you get into design exercises and you get into three or four interviews. And that’s a different set of skills and you need to be able to because there’s a lot of demand for these for these companies, just 11 designers trying to get in and just a few spots.

Andy Parker
Yeah, this is a big challenge, like you say there. There’s actually a lot of jobs out there. Internationally, we’ve got a very saturated market. It’s all a particular end of it. What I’m wondering about is trying to support people to chase that top 5% is setting up for an incredibly high failure rate for what is essentially a an assumption that it’s a better experience and somewhere else because you have people there that will theoretically nurture and develop your career. But you will also be put into a mindset which is very much of a big corporate organization. Is there a risk of someone following that potentially being unemployed for a year or more, because they’re trying to get into one of those large groups where there are very few slots and an incredibly high bar to entry. And they’ve got a CV, which has got two, three years experience on it, and everyone’s looking for 10

Vanessa Colina
Yeah, definitely, you’re completely right. And what I want to do is actually help the ones that want to get not in the 5%. But the ones that want they want to get in the 40 the other 40% of people that are of companies that are in the middle that they already recognize the sign that is something that they need to grow and invest in, and and not in their 5% because you’re right, like it’s a different, it’s very difficult. It’s they are more aspects to take him into consideration when you want to get into that 5%. So I would say that I I’m not encouraging encouraging People to apply to the 5% I’m encouraging them to apply to the or other 40% of companies who are in the middle there are waiting for for that designer that wants to establish that their design practice within their companies. Right. And yeah, and I’ve been talking to mostly people that are in, in companies with a low maturity and, but also people that they that are in companies where they, they started in maturity and they were able to advance to the next level. And once things get stylish, is more difficult to change something that you want to evolve. For example, once you have your design, process stylish then if you want to change something because you want to you realize that I mean, everything can be can be improved, right? And you want to do that then it’s really difficult to changes things as well. So I’m focusing on designers that are eager to establish that that design practice in a company hapa, helping them identify the companies that actually have that opportunity open for them.

Andy Parker
What do you see as being the skills that people need for the next, let’s say five years in terms of moving out of that first role that you’ve had, and moving into that kind of more mid white space, potentially looking at those leadership opportunities?

Vanessa Colina
Yeah, it is interesting that you mentioned that the part about leadership because that’s something that we as designers with this, this whole, for for the next three years, I would say we’re gonna be explaining a lot of what we do on the job, and that’s going to take a lot of leadership skill. So being able to articulate your design decisions being able to articulate why design needs to be involved in the in the strategy of the company. Having business argument will be will be great. Being able to identify them, what’s the business model of the company? So you can you can present your work in a way in your work in a way that impacts the company’s bottom line. So that’s that’s something that we’ve been I think, informally, we’ve been moving into that that area, but in the next in the next three years, I think that’s something that is going to set leaders just talking about the signers in leadership apart. Because one of the things that you can see in the companies who are in the 5% of maturity, is that design is in the highest level is working with the CEO is working with a C suite. It’s working with AV where the VP of product So in order to do that, you have to grow out of just your craft and start understanding the other part of parts of the companies. And, and for that reason, you need to understand what the company does outside of design. So for example, if it is in manufacturing, if it is in, in tech, if it is in any kind of company, it having a good understanding of the business model is going to allow you to start entering those conversations in leadership.

Andy Parker
So, being able to look beyond the confines of the screen and the, the interfaces that you’re developing and the touch points that you’re you’re responsible for being able to put it into that wider context of what else is happening in the in the organization you’re in.

Vanessa Colina
Yeah, and it depends on the on the level of leadership to write because you can be the head of the team of the design team and that’s a leadership role. And in that sense, you You might just focus on design and what can design and how design works with engineering or or some of the areas. But once you start moving up in the organization and the bigger they are, then the more you need to complement design with other area. So something to keep in mind too, if you’re not looking into working with a CEO or you’re not looking into moving up in leadership in a company with maybe 5000 people then start looking in places that maybe it’s a smaller company and in it maybe you don’t need to get into business as much. And that’s that’s what I mean with it. Everyone is different. So not everyone wants to go into a big company or not everyone wants to go into a smaller company because then there you do a lot of things at the same time. Some some people enjoy that other people don’t So it depends on the level of leadership that you are targeting. And also the impact that you want to have like, this is something that repeats itself every time that I talked to a designer like we, and I think it has to do be because with the fact that we have the contact with the beneficiary, right they use are the ones, the one that we are solving for. I didn’t know one, once you have that contact with that person, and that empathy, you really want to make an impact on their life, like solving their problem. So when you start thinking in that way with that mindset that I think that almost every designer has, then you realize that the more influence that you have in the company, the more you’re able to get to that impact for that person. That’s one of my my, my theory, is that why we want to go into these leadership positions. And especially if you choose a product that you are really passionate about like industry, an industry that you really want To see thrive, for the people that need it,

Andy Parker
well, I was gonna say like, talking about these, these really sort of a motive points here around impact of wanting to be able to see that you’ve, you’ve made a difference to something, whether that’s to to the end user of a product or to the organization itself. That’s something which I feel is a lot harder to do in large enterprises, you’ve probably got more chance of being able to do that within that the small medium enterprises speak or even startups like because you’ve got a lot more deeper contact. I’m wondering whether when you’re talking to people that are effectively going through this mentorship experience, how much of exploration you have around personal values, and whether that should come into play with making decisions as the type of employers you’re looking at as well as how you perceive their design maturity, because I’m sure that one person might look at something like Facebook, for example, and say that it’s not really the kind of organization They want but I’m sure that there’s probably a lot of career development opportunities in a space like that.

Vanessa Colina
Yeah, and you’re exactly right. Where you apply to as a designer, it has everything to do with, with your values. And, and I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t just say about in InDesign, like wherever you as any kind of professional, I believe that if you could find a job that is aligned with your values, you’re going to be more fulfilled in your day to day job. So that’s why I say that everyone is different in this in this journey of applying for their next UX job. Because you might, I mean, culture is really something really important to look at in a company when you are when you are applying to that company. And the space that you want to, to improve with design, it’s important as well. So one of the factors is is the size of the company? Yes. And what are you going to learn? But then one of the other factors is, once you improve that area, will you be fulfilled in your job once you start making progress, and it’s also it’s, it’s also part of where you are in your, in your design journey. I’ve talked to people that are just switching from, for example, product design to UX design, or any kind of other profession that they had. As you know, there are many people going into UX with a different set of backgrounds. And there’s also people that have 235 years of experience in in a company where they weren’t able to do as much as they as they could. So if your objective is to grow as a professional in your craft, I always say like you could, you could write down your values, but what you do is is how you manifest your value so you can have a list And you could say, this is all that I value is really nice. But then when you make a decision today and tomorrow, that’s that those are your real values and wanting to grow as in your craft for maybe a year in a company that maybe doesn’t have the product that you want to improve necessarily. That’s I don’t think that’s, that’s a bad thing. If, if you if you’re, if you’re clear that your value for this year is to grow as a professional, because you need that to be able to enter the company, that that you really want to help advance. The The important thing is to to be clear about that. Because when you’re when you’re not, then you apply to Facebook for the for the reason that you just mentioned because you want to grow your your abilities, but then you apply to all of the other companies. And you end up applying to 15 companies and the application is not is as I said at the beginning that it’s not the best of application because you have just so many hours in the day. So so you don’t you end up getting nothing, you don’t get that job and Facebook and you don’t get that job in the in the company that you’ve always wanted to do work for.

Andy Parker
If we if we think back to that process then of like, saying you might be in a an organization where you’ve been there only for a couple of years, maybe it’s even your first job from doing that career switch where this is the first time you’ve been responsible for this design practice. The other thing that I hear quite a lot from people who are going out and looking for work in that situation is that they are ultimately let down by that because they haven’t been value driven. They’ve ended up working in an organization where the processes are quite archaic. They’re perhaps dated. They don’t work in the way that they know that they would work best in and so when they’re asked to then present their work Part of a portfolio, they don’t feel confident in what they have to show. How can you work around that sort of situation?

Vanessa Colina
That’s a great question. So you’re, you’re saying that if you’ve been in a company where they haven’t updated their their design practice, then you were as a designer, you wouldn’t have a good portfolio for your next next job. All right, yeah. Yeah. So um, yeah, I got this question yesterday, actually. And my response is that that is happening a lot. So that was the first time that I that I said, this personally, it is not an isolated incident. So it’s happening a lot for for that for that reason. There’s a lot of low maturity companies and then you’re not able to build your portfolio. And the next companies asking for someone that already has like two three years of experience and can prove it right. So that’s something that in my opinion needs to change. And that’s one of the reasons why I’m creating a few products under the UX backstage umbrella. Because once once the companies realize that they are losing their losing talent, because they are not letting these talent enter their companies in their bus in the situation that they’re at, I mean, they’re not going to be able to feel that position because there’s not enough experienced designers for the number of companies have positions open. And one thing that I that I always say, when you are applying is to, to explain your explain your projects, in the context of the design process. So for example, and I always say be honest, don’t try to like change your projects to make it look like you did something that you didn’t So it’s better to present your projects and say like, this is what this is a problem that we are trying to solve these assumptions that we have. This is where I was able to get to in the project. And this is what I the the other methods that would i would have applied to these to these projects. So it’s really good to, to explain how you would choose one method of it over the other. Because that’s one of the things that I think that differentiates UX designer you have. I’ve seen people list all of the all of the methods on the under under the sun, of UX design, but the thing is, the real skill is which ones to use when and for one, right? So that’s something that you can show in the in the interview. If you don’t have enough experience, you can show how you make that decision how you craft your The problem. And one thing that I always recommend to is to if you’re not allowed to do what you want to do during your job, like create your own projects where you can, you can test the everything that we learn in user experience, one of the things that is really important is to be able to be comfortable with the with the user. And, and to get to gather these these insights. And to be able to identify who has this problem. This is something that you can test on your own as well. And I mean, we are in this weird situation where we need to do these kinds of things. And it’s not until we we advance a little bit more in this maturity within this company that we’re going to be able to improve the situation. This one, the latest episode in them in the podcast, AUX backstage podcast, talks about that as well. Like a lot of people are learning on the job. This is this is the guests that I had, which is a great, great guest. His name is Christian roar. And he teaches user experience strategy. In Nielsen Norman, he said that the best companies, the companies that leverage design, the best are going to realize that they need to train people on the job. They are, there’s too much demand and not enough people with enough experience to fill this position. So they’re going to have to, they’re going to have to figure out how to make it work.

Andy Parker
We’ve definitely got a big gap, as you’ve said, in terms of that, so many people are career switching, they’re ultimately coming in at graduates but because their career switching, maybe they’re, you know, in their late 20s, early 30s. There’s also unfortunately, I sort of feel like a little bit of a delusion of grandeur that they are more capable and proficient than they actually are because They’ve been in work for quite some time. They haven’t been doing this work. But that said, most of us actually haven’t been doing this work for very long. Yeah, we keep forgetting that touchscreen interfaces have only appeared within the last decade. And now we’ve got new interfaces, we’ve got voice interfaces, we’ve got things like visual recognition software, augmented reality’s all of these new emerging technologies. Nobody has any experience in them. It seems ridiculous to be, you know, advertising jobs for it. I mean, it’s it’s quite phenomenal to see a few adverts out this week for jobs in the UK, that are looking for people with five or more years experience building Alexa apps, that’s literally impossible. And yet someone’s put that ad out, you can kind of infer from that I guess if like the maturity level of that organization, but there is needed for us to be a little bit mindful of the fact that we’re all all learning all the time. Right? So what else could we be doing as hiring managers and as sort of like organizational heads to make the process better for us to be able to bring in that new talent and to develop it.

Vanessa Colina
So in terms of hiring managers, one of them of the things that are that might bring a better pipeline for them is to be more precise on what they need from them, from their designer in there, at least in the job description. There are these generic job descriptions that people are just like copying and pasting. And it doesn’t say much about the product or the culture like that, that those two things are the things that we’re looking into the most, their culture because of that, these base where we are now and for the I think for the next two years where we are explaining within the company, what his experience can do for them, it’s very important to to know what’s the what’s the culture so to know what we’re going to be working with a lot of positions are adding already then the area of being the champion of UX within the company. Once you see that you realize that that company is still struggling with with presenting the value of user experience having having a good culture page, of course, not inside of the job description, but many companies have just a page to describe what they value within the company and also understanding the kind of designer that they need for the product that they have right now. So not not try not to be so how high level but say One of the best, just job descriptions say like, this is where we are in our product. This is the, the, the, the user that we want to help right now this is the challenge that we have as much as as they can share, because there’s a lot of things that can’t be shared outside of the company, but as much as as they can share. So the designer knows what they would be hired to solve for looking a little bit more

Andy Parker
like, what your immediate need is to be able to put the context of this is ultimately where you’re going to start this journey. And we have to get over this point for us to be able to do anything more advanced than this so that you can make a decision as to whether or not that’s what you want to be doing right now rather than thinking about it in terms of your career length.

Vanessa Colina
Yes, and, and and their recent and the reason I say that too is because in order to do that, to include Your job description or in the opening, you need to do a lot of work prior to that. And what we’ve seen is that a lot of description is like, okay, we need a UX designer, and then we look up everything that UX designer can do, and that’s a job description, right? And there needs to be more work prior to that there is there is a great course, that is from Jared spool, that is called, I think, is hiring masterclass. And that’s, that’s what he does. He’s works with companies and I think he runs workshops, and he, he does this consultancy only to for them to realize exactly what kind of designer they need for that moment for that product and that service. I just want. I just want to make it clear, that is not something easy. But if you do that as a company prior, you’re going to get a much better pipeline of designers and for Our designer we’re going to be we’re going to have a better idea of what we are applying for. So we’re going to be able to position our projects in a much better way. And, and be more excited about the change that we can witness that we can do when we enter the company. So it’s not easy. But at the same time is more. It works better for the company and for the designer.

Andy Parker
You’re so right. I think that is, is something that’s becoming more and more apparent to a lot of people at the moment that there is a validity in the concept of employer brand, and positioning yourself to be attractive to talent, not just to the consumer of your product or your service. Right. I think we all probably need a little bit of help with that. Yes, that’s great. Thank you so much for taking some time out today to talk to us. about it I really looking forward to following everything that’s going on with us backstage over the next couple of months. And if people wanted to find out more about what you’re doing and what you have to say on this, where can they go.

Vanessa Colina
So you can go to UXbackstage.com. And there you’re going to see everything that we are creating, to advance the mission of, of the, of the project. And if you go to UXbackstage forward, slash course, you’re going to see the course is still open. I’m still talking to people to to see who’s a good fit, who I can help with this program. And the program. It’s starting November 18. And at the UX podcast as well, we’ve just released a second episode, and it talks about education leadership. These are conversations with designers who are in in leadership positions in in companies, and yeah, if you want to follow in in Twitter as well. Everything is UXbackstage everywhere.

Andy Parker
Thank you for listening to the UX coach podcast. If you’d like to come and join this, maybe you want to share your experience or talk about something we’ve previously discussed. I truly mean this when I say it, get in touch at the UX coach.com. I’ll be back in a few weeks with another guest to talk about design and user research careers, the challenges ahead and advice on personal development. Until then, you can follow us on Twitter @theuxcoachpod.


Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *